Atheist Soldier Sues Army for 'Unconstitutional' Discrimination - CNN.com

Because religion is all-pervasive in America, and it wouldn't do to piss off the fundies by publicly acknowledging that their discrimination against those of other or no faiths is flatly anti-American.

Well, I will take that back. The Quakers don't.

For the record, and in defense of my faith, Jews don't either. When was the last time a Jew knocked on your door and asked you to convert?

Ok, you got me there. Let's start a list of who does and does not.

But you have to consider, being a Jew is not just a religious choice, but also a race.

Quakers, Jews, and some forms of Buddhism.

And as much as people keep saying that Jews are a race, they're not. Not even by the really vague definition of "race" in common usage. They're just people. The conflation of religion and race where Judaism is concerned has caused endless problems, and it's a completely man-made set of problems.

Ok, well I never said I was always right.

I thought I was wrong once. Then later I found out I was mistaken.

Thanks for clearing it all up.

No problem.

there is no Christian conspiracy going on in the military. To think so is silly. Really? You've got

• ongoing religious bullying at

  • the Air Force Academy
  • West Point
  • the Naval Academy

• Soldiers and chaplains proselytizing Iraqis
• "Support" services which are entirely religious in nature dressing up in military uniforms and working on a daily basis proselytizing within the military
• Creationists giving speeches at prayer breakfasts at the Pentagon
• military officials appearing in uniform to endorse specific religious groups, both in person and on videotape.

I don't know that "conspiracy" is the right word, but in the absence of anything better, it'll do.

Yeah, there may be more to Hall's story than meets the eye. But dismissing Hall's complaint in light of the above is misguided.

PO5864,

We all think there is more to this story than simply what this person is alleging. The article was very one-sided and did not have an explanation from the military.

This man and his claims/lawsuit has been discussed several times on Newsvine. You are correct that we only have his side. Your reasonable observation that people are presuming his veracity will likely get a lot of people attacking you, but you are correct.

It shou0ld be noted that this man never followed grievance procedure. He never provided the army with any opportunity to address the issues he claims happened because he never complained to anyone with authority to intervene.

There should be a response by the defendants soon. That will be interesting and will perhaps allow a better discussion with information from both sides.

iarnuocon,

You are incorrect in your statement that soldiers and chaplains are proselytizing Iraqi's. It is specifically prohibited in CENTCOM. On the odd chance that an individual soldier or chaplain refuses to obey that order; they are risking their careers and a possible court martial.

As for Hall, he had several avenues to remedy the situation. The first is to notify his chain of command. The vast majority of inappropriate conduct will be handled there in a very quick and effective manner....even if they disagree with his position. Why....because they don't want their own careers ruined.

Secondly, every unit has a Judge Advocate (Lawyer) assigned to it. It is the right of every soldier to seek counsel and they know it. The base also has a legal defense office that does nothing but represent soldiers that may have been wronged. This helps to avoid a possible conflict of interest with the unit lawyer working closely with the unit commander.

Lastly, he could always contact the Inspector General or one of his Congressmen or Senators. Believe me, every Private in the Army knows about the IG and the ability to call their Congressman. Congressional investigations bring a lot of attention to units that commanders don't want. They will do just about anything to avoid one.

Bottom Line: He had multiple ways to resolve this while on Active Duty. Why didn't he do it.....I have no idea. I'll have to wait and see what the response is, but I definitely think there is more to this than what the soldier is saying.

As for ongoing religious bullying at the service academies....I have no idea where you get that information.....or if it is from a credible source.

I'm also not sure what you are trying to get at with the prayer breakfast comment. Unit chaplains normally are given a small amount of money for support of non-denominational religious support programs. These events are NEVER mandatory. If a soldier does not wish to participate, they don't have to show up. They are usually conducted prior to the start of the work day, so there is no lost time from work. So, if a bunch of soldiers that are christian wish to attend a prayer breakfast....I see nothing wrong in that. The non-Christians do not have to attend. By the way, the same is done for Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, etc. Nobody is left out, except for the Atheists, and they want to be left out.

You absolutely have to understand one point. The military regulations prohibit any sort of religious bias to any religion....or those that have no religion. If a commander violates that, then he is wrong and will be dealt with. Period.

I believe there was a chaplain that was court martialed for proselytizing at Guantanamo to the Muslim prisoners. There was no cover up.....There was no secret pact to let him keep doing it. He was prosecuted and thrown out of the military.

If you have proof of your allegations, I would like to see it. I would also like to see what the military's response was. I believe that for every verifiable incident of wrongdoing, you will find a punishment was rendered to the parties that allowed it to happen.

On the odd chance that an individual soldier or chaplain refuses to obey that order; they are risking their careers and a possible court martial. So what? They obviously are doing it, they admit it in print in Christian publications. Faced with their own words, your objection that they can't possibly be doing so falls a little flat, as far as I'm concerned.

He had multiple ways to resolve this while on Active Duty. Why didn't he do it.....I have no idea. I'll have to wait and see what the response is, but I definitely think there is more to this than what the soldier is saying. I agree. I simply think it's interesting that people infer that he's lying simply because they themselves can't imagine that he's being truthful. That's a failure of imagination, not a logical argument, as far as I'm concerned.

As for ongoing religious bullying at the service academies....I have no idea where you get that information.....or if it is from a credible source. I presented the links, read the articles and judge for yourself.

I'm also not sure what you are trying to get at with the prayer breakfast comment. I should think it's obvious. To the assertion that the military doesn't promote any religion, the obvious answer is that it most certainly does so, as evidenced by the various links I provided-- including inviting creationists to speak at prayer breakfasts. That may not be the documented process that's pointed to whenever people complain, but it is clearly the de facto practice for a significant portion of the military.

Nobody is left out, except for the Atheists, and they want to be left out. Right. When they get together, without even asking for money for "support," what they receive are threats to their careers. Atheists are second-class citizens. Got it, thanks.

The military regulations prohibit any sort of religious bias to any religion....or those that have no religion. If a commander violates that, then he is wrong and will be dealt with. Really... well, I have to simply wonder where all these lawsuits are coming from, then. It strikes me as passingly strange that although the military is "dealing with" these issues so quickly and firmly, so many soldiers feel as though that is not the case.

Maybe large segments of the military simply aren't following the regulations?

I believe there was a chaplain that was court martialed for proselytizing at Guantanamo to the Muslim prisoners. Link? I searched and found nothing.

If you have proof of your allegations, I would like to see it. Click the links, then. i can provide them, but I can't make you read them.

I believe that for every verifiable incident of wrongdoing, you will find a punishment was rendered to the parties that allowed it to happen. Great! Let us know what punishment was meted out to Air Force Maj. Gen. Jack J. Catton Jr., who used his directorship on the joint staff to proselytize, and openly bragged about it in a videotape produced by a Christian group. Or Under Secretary of Veterans' Affairs Dan Cooper, who, on the same tape, claimed that his prayer sessions were "more important than doing the job." The Inspector General found the seven uniformed officers who appeared in the video were guilty of "misconduct." Maybe you can detail for us the extent of the punishment that was rendered.

Like I said, you can have whatever opinion you want to have. You're welcome to it. But the claim that the military is religiously neutral by virtue of its regulations, in the face of clear actions to the contrary at the highest levels of the military, simply does not withstand scrutiny.

I provided half a dozen links to information. Vastly more is available with a cursory google search on the subject. I don't know what other "proof" you'd like, but you should at the least start with those before claiming there isn't any.

I always try to keep an open mind, so I went through the links and I was absolutely unimpressed. In just about every situation where an offense was noted, the military took corrective action.

You cannot deny the regulations to prevent these actions are in place. You can also read in your own sources where individuals have been punished for violating these regulations. And the reported abuses are pretty trivial in my mind. C'mon, they complain because at West Point there is a prayer before the lunch meal. That's the grand Christian conspiracy? "Lord...Thanks for the great chow!" I'm sorry, I just don't see this massive Christian Conspiracy that you see.

Look, the military is huge. It is also a representation of society and we get all sorts of people within the ranks, ranging from devout atheists to the most die-hard religious folks you can imagine.

I can remember debates, which were between the soldiers during our "off-time," regarding the subject of religion. They were spirited and both groups would jokingly comment about the other's beliefs. When breaktime was over, we got back to work, and everyone was friends. I can tell you from my personal experiences, and the experiences of three career military personnel in family......we think this whole think is greatly exaggerated.

I'm sure that my thoughts on the subject won't change your mind. After looking at the sources and reading your comments on the articles, it is obvious that you are very passionate about this subject. I'm not trying to sway your opinion, because I believe that it does exist in small numbers. Afterall, with a military as large as ours is, it is impossible to stop all negative conduct. I just don't happen to agree with you that it is as bad a situation as you think it is.

Oh, I also wanted to clarify. I was wrong about the Guantanamo chaplain that was court martialed for proselytizing. It was a muslim Chaplain that was court martialed for offenses that had nothing to do with proselytizing. Just wanted to set the record straight. I could find nothing about proselytizing to the Muslim prisoners kept there.

Fair enough.

I know a young man that is serving as a Captain in Special Forces. I watched him grow up from a young man, as I was his Scoutmaster and he was also friends with my son. He is my "unofficial" adopted son and I trust that what he tells me is the truth and not an exaggeration.

According to his three tours worth of experience in Iraq, our soldiers are constantly taught to respect the religion of the Iraqi's. This includes the Iraqi soldiers that they work with, and the Iraqi civilians that they encounter.

For example, NOBODY is to proselytize. If anyone is suspected of it, an investigation ensues immediately. This is to prevent an international incident. If a local Imam complains that soldiers are proselytizing in his area, it very quickly gets to a national level.

When they search a home, they have learned to be very careful looking through books in the house. Our soldiers are not to touch the Koran, and definitely not throw it on the floor as they may with other books during a search. In fact, he prefers that the Iraqi soldiers conduct the searches with the Americans just observing.

Again, You can never say that something never happens. That would be ignorant to suggest such a thing with the massive military we have. There will always be people that get in that have a difficult time following orders. However....they get punished when the infractions occur.

Like I said previously, I just don't think that this is such a huge problem as others believe it is.

Have you ever been in the military or attended a military protestant service? It is about as neutral as can be. And yes, I have.

CapitalK,

The military does have non-denominational Protestant services with their chaplains. They also provide Catholic Mass and there are even Jewish and Muslim services. I'm not sure if there are any chaplains that are of the Mormon faith.

The services are to provide spiritual guidance and support for those that DESIRE it. Never is it mandatory. Even in Basic Training, which is the most restrictive environment in the military, attending religious services is not mandatory.

The military does not promote one religion over another. In fact, it bends over backwards to accomodate the needs of every soldier. For example, if the unit chaplain happens to be Catholic, they will arrange for another unit's Protestant Chaplain to visit and provide services. My son had a Muslim in his unit. His unit would provide transportation to his place of worship on a weekly basis.

I have no idea who told you these falsehoods, but they are definitely incorrect. Our country was founded by people that were fleeing religious persecution. Freedom of Religion is written into the Bill of Rights. Our military supports these principles and does an OUTSTANDING job of guaranteeing those rights to others. They also see to it that their soldiers have the same Freedom of Religion, or freedom FROM religion.

Most of the people posting comments on here have no idea what the reality is in the military. They confuse official military policy with the occasional rantings of a fanatic in the ranks. There is a huge difference. I know religious fanatics in the civilian world that drive me nuts with their "bible thumping." I'm sure that there are also the same types of individuals in the military. They can talk all they want in their private time. On military time, most commanders will tell them to knock off that sort of activity. Work is supposed to be free from that sort of stuff.

There is a time and a place for worship, and that is when the Chaplains come into the picture. Different services are provided and nobody is forced to attend. I really don't see what the problem is.

Why do the ignorant always have the most power? Because there are so goddamned many of them.

Amen Brother.

Why do the ignorant always have the most power?

Cause smart people don't want it.

Yeah, I am always ridiculing Christians for their stupid, quaint superstitions, it's just good fun at the expense of the ignorant. No big deal.

I'm talking stuff like someone we worked with believed that Jesus killed the dinosaurs. That the dinosaurs were from another planet. That Jesus has, as recently as the 1970s, ate fajitas with the Mexicans. And that Native Americans were Jesus's true followers and he teleported them to America from Jerusalim.

I don't have a problem with anyone's beliefs or lack there-of. The only time I'll say anything bad about anyone's beliefs is when they try to push them on me. The first thing the person I was refering to in the above paragraph said to me was that I'm going to hell because I have tattoos.

Yep, that will do it. Destruction of the temple. Been told that by a beer drinking, smoking Southern Baptist. Couldn't figure it out.

I just told him that I would see him there. That put his panties in a wad. But it did end the converstation.

Your guy doesn't sound as determined as mine. He'd wait outside our barracks room to make sure we fully understand the peril we are placing on our souls by going to the bar.