MIT Researchers Make Major Solar Power Breakthrough -- InformationWeek

Not with the proper incentives.

10 years seems like a long time. We can do it quicker.

Great news and article, JCAtom
I wish them well.
I also think this will get squashed, bought and disappear or get paid off not to happen { maybe by the Saudis' or the Chinese }
I also believe there's no reason to believe that it can't be done in a tenth of the time.
And, how far would all that 3 trillion have gone, good one.

But I wonder whether it will go the way of the 200 MPG automobile carburetor (bought out by a gasoline company and disappeared)--or so the story goes.

I had much the same response -- how will the multinational energy companies quash, obstruct, obfuscate, litigate, over-regulate, monopolize ad infinitum something with such potential. And of course a substantial reduction in the demand for petroleum fuels will lower the price, making alternative energy sources too expensive, and the energy merry-go-round starts up another time...

Well, I saw that collapsed comment, so I went to the guy's column and found this in his bio:

'Intellectual honesty, reason, free thinking and science...'

Elvis has left the building.

About the article itself: You are right. MIT is no slouch. They even invented time travel once. Oh, wait...that was from a book. (laughs) If MIT has made a major breakthrough in solar, it wouldn't surprise me a bit.

I don't think the infra-structure will support itself beyond the 10 years the article talks about anyway. It won't in any dependable way, anyway. The reason the carb squash was successful was the apparatus for the established protocol was entrenched.

RETLAW, not just a "story".

My uncle was in the African theatre in WWII, and was eyewitness to Patton's tanks and jeeps getting incredible mileage. Look up the improvements to carburetors since 1941 and you will find 242 legitimate patents in the U.S. alone. (Fuel additives were a response by the oil industry to render them moot.)

JC, your idea re: a "list" is the best I have seen in a while. Any ideas on where to begin, and if Newsvine can help?

Robert, MIT is not the only bastion of research, there are many others getting less press. The crucial query is why nothing becomes of it.

JC, with reference to your comment about the sun being the most reliable and abundant source of energy we have, so true. In fact, other than some of nuclear-based power or tidal forces, it is ultimately our only source of power. Energy from the sun is a) radiated back into space b) heats up the planet or c) translated into some form of potential energy such as oil or coal.

So in our usage of oil and coal, we are simply spending solar energy out of storage. The planet has actually acted like a kind of battery for billions of years storing all the solar energy received, other than that re-radiated into space.

There's such a thing as thermovoltaic cells.

JC, I think that it would be appropriate to ask, just how much of it do we want to retain? Unless it is placed into some form of storage, that energy will take the form of heat/motion. So far, the planet seems to be doing a pretty good balancing act, keeping everything 'just right' (as Goldilocks would say).

Good post Steve.
Yes the problem is storing the power.
There is a solar company that approaches this problem differently.
They store heat and then turn it into electrical power.
I'm new on the vine so I can't post a link, but this may be of some interest ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>Ausra Dot Com.

steve, I had a calculus professor who pointed out the Ark of the Covenant was an excellent capacitor, and being the inquisitive type, I looked up the description of its design and construction. She was right on, as Uz found to his dismay.

Living in the "hurricane" belt, I can tell you it is not the moving parts, but the water and wind resistance that is all important. (Like the islanders in "South Pacific" trying to explain to the missionaries the importance of pylons, stilts, and breezeways.)

Domed structures, similar to Bucky-balls, have proven their wind resistance abilities, and there are homes on the Gulf being built incorporating those concepts.

You must live in one of the few enlightened parts of Floriduh where domed structures aren't considered "ghastly". Over here on the gulf coast they are all standard boxes. I've been here since Y2K and the development has run rampant without regard to what will happen when the next big one will hit. No domed structures but lots of doomed structures!

That's because the largest single percentage occupation of ocean front property owners are lawyers and their cronies and clients.

How else do you think they all get to live in multi-million dollar onclaves, that get rebuilt for them if a hurricane strikes, all courtesy of Uncle Sam?

Sorry, Minnie. MIT will never put details on the internet. The "ten years" scenario is modus operandi similar to what I have witnessed and been privy to at major universities. Remember the Albert Einstein School of Medicine researchers who found a cure for cancer and aids, and almost every other type of pathogen caused disease? "The ability to bring to fruition is at least 50 years from now...."

I worked with the Health Science Center at the University of North Texas wherein we helped bring to market incredible things....thrombo-resistent plastic (used in all IV's now and Dr. Charney's hip, and just about everything that is inserted into the body), a revolutionary heart catheter, engineered arteries....just to name a few. But you would not believe some of the things scrubbed and tabled.

It is all about the money. If it jeopardizes the stream and flow in any way, in any sector, or is deemed "threatening" in any way, then , it is tabled to the dusty confines of the archives until later. Sometimes until never.

Like others I hope it does not take "years" to bring it to market. They say it does not take exotic materials or special manufacturing so why should it?

I'm hoping that the next president is not a stooge for the oil companies and puts the challenge out to the country to drive for energy independence within his first term. With break throughs like this it can be done.

I'm sure that the 10 year figure is based more on funding for developement then anything else.

I heard a talk a few weeks ago from a man from MIT who is developing prostheic limbs who said that his latest would be available in 10 years but that if $10 million in funding could be found it would be out in 3.

Same thing applies to most projects. Get the idea, prove it works and then try and get funding to put the team together to make it real.

I'm sure there's some us left, that have some change that we can throw at them, too.
Where's that Gore when you need him?
We need a'Solar Aid'

I say we have a ' SOLAR AID ' benefit concert, in this country.

I've heard talk that Obama will make Gore the energy czar for the country. That would prove very interesting to those of us that want a fundemental change in how we use our natural resources to power the world.

steveoutdoorrec,

That's the first I've heard of this. Having Gore as a czar sounds like an excellent idea. We need all the progressive thinking we can get these days.

InEden,

' SOLAR AID ' benefit concert

What a great idea! I bet many artists and intellectuals would get behind this one and there's no way the biased media could spin it..not that they wouldn't try.

Thanks Ire.
I do hope someone takes a run with this ' ball ' and makes it happen regardless of the ' spin '.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080731143345.htm I think that's it

The was a program about Ribbon solar cells several years ago in Australia. The developer was Australian and went offshore because no one was interested. At least that's my memory of the program.

Speaking of X-prize, didn't the Bush admin. offer a prize for a battery to hold power. Doesn't this qualify?
And a Gore / T Boone co-Czar is a good idea.

Awhile back I was reading up on solar and some of what I found was interesting. For instance, the old, early generation solar cells actually get better with age, not that they put out more power but they are stronger, more durable, and can still generate the same amount of electricity as when new.

I think the newer generations of cells will see a vast increase in efficiency, renedering the "cloudy day" argument pretty much null. I think what scares the vested interest about these things is that they are/will be for the most part a one-time sale. Meaning there's no ongoing revenue stream, so coveted by the mega corporations, to rely on. Since the revenue stream is life blood - look for all sorts of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) tactics around these things and, worse, look for talk of built in obsolescence. After all I think most of us are trying to get away from the disposable society..

Nick... There is progress even on the storage of solar. They are now clamming 20 hour a day power from solar. Ref... www.ausra dot com.

It's not the storage of power for the dark part of the day but more a problem of economics on a large scale.

The park I manager is totally off the grid. We use solar collectors and large lead acid batteries and have no power interuptions from storms like the towns around us do. This is in the middle of the Adriondack Mountains of NY. Our largest set up runs two houses and the maintanence shop. We do have a back up propane powered geneartor that has run for 450 hours over the course of the last three years and then only when our power needs for equipment out strip the solar available. For the normal household it is very feasable to go solar.

The problem lies in how do you power a city on solar? There is too much consumption for the amount of area available for generation. Hopefully this and other ideas will help.

The problem lies in how do you power a city on solar? There is too much consumption for the amount of area available for generation. Hopefully this and other ideas will help.

That is where the grid comes into play. Concentrated uses of power like heavy industry and manufacturing require more power than simply roof top solar. Thermal solar plants and windfarms connected to a widespread grid along with backup natural gas powered plants should be able to handle the load eventually. The natural gas might even be replaced with hydrogen generated on site.

Please keep focus on the article that relates to finding a safe, storage solution for solar in homes and small commercial applications that can make solar affordable for all. The large projects do not have the force of regulation nor tax credit initiatives for the initial capital expenditure. Here in Arizona where we have more sun days than almost anywhere on the planet, our Corporation Commission mandates the public utilities must generate a minimum of 15% of their power from "green" solutions, rather than oil or gas power generation plants. Even here in the land of the sun, we have difficulty paying the enormous start up costs to justify the investment. Due to the heat here, we have difficulty using solar cells and must rely upon hydro-thermal tube technology to create somewhat cost effective power generation. These plants have little difficulty hooking up to the current grid system because they invert the power produced to usable distribution levels and have safe export controls to the grid.

Actually the discovery by MIT goes far beyond storage for solar in homes. Being able to generate cheap hydrogen makes the whole hydrogen economy feasible particularly hydrogen powered vehicles.

Of course solar is not going to be the magic wand. After all there is no magic wand but if every roof on every home and business from southern California to Florida was covered with energy producing solar cells, several gigawatts would be produced daily without the need for transmission and distribution. Old generation facilities now relegated to peak demand, usually inefficient and primarily burners of fossil fuel could remain offline. Excess power could produce hydrogen for vehicles or whatever needs power. The current all or nothing approach has driven us into a miserable state. Capure the capacitance lighning, wave and or tidal generation, the list goes on. We are taught to think outside the box, why cant we for energy, are we too fat and happy. I curse the oil companies with every fill. Several incremental moves all begin to add up after a while. Perhaps we will see the light! (ohhhh sorry for the pun)

JCAtom : Interesting article; your ' in the city '. Another rooftop use that you don't see much. You could post that here, or one of the green groups.

steveoutdoor, could you possibly take a note pad to the area where the back up is, and note models and brands for the rest of us that would like to replicate what you are doing in the mountains?

To get actual equipment names and model numbers from a system that works would go a long way towards helping many in our state that have no recourse when the winds blow.

FloridaFrodo: if you are looking for what we use as a back up generator it is a Cummings Onan made for use in an RV. Runs on propane which is a big advantage over gasoline in that the fuel can sit for years and not go bad. Gasoline breaks down in a very short time and is unuseable. I think there may be some that run on natural gas but in a disaster that fuel may be cut off to limit the danger from fires. Check with a local RV dealer, as I'm sure there's one or two in your state, and they will help you find a model that will meet your needs.

If you can go solar then do so even if you can't afford batteries at first you can tie into the grid and save a bundle of money on your electric bills. Then get batteries for use as a backup when the grid gets blown away.

Thanks, Steve. I can see a Cummings Onan for an RV, but a home?

What size do you use?

We use solar collectors and large lead acid batteries and have no power interuptions from storms like the towns around us do. This is in the middle of the Adriondack Mountains of NY. Our largest set up runs two houses and the maintanence shop.

I was hoping you could give an idea on the "set up" specifics.

We have an Onan model 6500 LP Marquis Gold. Puts out 54.2 amps and 120 volts. This is enough to run our two houses and charge up the batteries. Takes about 8 hours to fully charge our batteries when they are at 50% capacity.

For the rest of the system we have 24 Schott Applied Power Corp. solar panels model SAPC-165 and it is all controled by a system from Xantrex. They ship the inverter and circut breaker box already attached to a mounting metal panel.

Not sure about the brand of batteries as they are in a box that's a bit of a pain to open. But I can tell you that they are 3 cell, lead acid batteries that weigh in at around 220 lbs each. We have 16 hooked up in series.

I was not here when it was installed so I really can't tell you much more about the system other then it works very well for us here in the northeast.

Hey steveoutdoorrec your system sounds really kick ass.

Are you running major appliances?
How often do you have to run the Onan?
How long have you been running this system?

Grog: we've been running this system for 3 years. I get to the park on May 1 and the past two years was here until early November. So there is no drain on the system over the winter. I wish I could stay here but the water system is not winterized and with 2 miles of road to keep clear with no plow it just won't happen.

On the system for our housing we have 2 cabins for the 5 employees including me. The refridgerators are from SunFrost. A bit on the expensive side but well worth the cost. These are built to be super efficient with very low energy usage. We use compact florecent bulbs though out. There is one clothes washer and drying is done on a clothesline. The same system runs the shop with table saw, jointer, bandsaw, drill press and asorted smaller power tools. On big building days we can use a lot of electric but the system handles it well.

The Onan just ran last night for about 8 hours and this is the first time in about 3 weeks. We've been getting a lot of rain and cloudy days in that same time frame and heavy rain makes me want to work inside. Not the best scenario on the power side but that's what we have to do sometimes.

We also use some of the power to charge up battery carts to take to the campsites for use in recharging power wheelchairs and we have an electric pontoon boat for trips around the lake. You can see some of this on the website www.johndillonpark.org

Thanks steveoutdoorrec - very cool.

The batteries sound like forklift batteries

No they are much smaller then those used for forklifts. These are about the twice the size of a truck battery. Sorry I can't easily get the name off them for you. We have them installed in a vented box that we only open once a year to add water.

I've been meaning to redesign the boxes to make them easier to open but that's a ways down the to-do list

I agree. Al Gore and T-Boone would be poor choices. We need this project to be run by Exxon, Shell and BP. After all. Who has more experience bringing energy to America? This is too important not to be left in the hands of mega corporations. MIT students, what do they know?

I think T. Boone Pickens would be an excellent choice. Maybe A.G. along for the PR value but no more.

What you're talking about, Mr. Gun, is of course the ultimate goal. However, one has to start somewhere. Hoping for a altruistic council to be chaired is, in my respectfully humble opinion, similar to Ralph Nader winning the presidency instead of just spoiling one side or the other year after year. Or better yet, to reflect your example, expecting big oil, (tobacco, health care, insurance, airlines, banking, telecommunications) to police them selves in the public interest.
I suppose it's possible but until hell freezes over, I'll reserve my vote. Thank You.

I'm not sure this would be a governing body, but something along the lines of the American Medical Association which would make recommendations, draw up guidelines and push forward the best ideas in the interest of the planet (okay, the United States, I don't wan't to piss off any Europe-hating conservatives). The AMA's mission statement is "To promote the art and science of medicine and the betterment of public health." A similar mission would be appropriate, such as to "promote the science of alternative energy in the interest of national security, economic well being and the environmental quality of the United States of America"

Agreed, however the danger is it would just become yet another lobbying entity. (ala People for the American Way or Center for Gender Bias on the Globe or Committee to Re-Elect the President). Which, I have to say, is my impression of the AMA. It might have been started with those lofty ideals but has, by its own conflict of interests, allowed itself to slip in credibility by alignment to the drug industry. Its these types of agendas which allowed the carb squash to occur.

"Aye....there's the rub." ~Shakespeare's Hamlet

(Unfortunately, Clinton took the rest literally, especially advice on the "bare bodkin".)

Wankel engines are still used (i.e. Mazda) and the problem with them is well known - they are horrible on fuel economy. It wasn't "bought off", that's just more conspiracy theorist talk.

It's not that those with a vested interest are blocking technology; they know very well how to co-opt technology; GE had no inventions of it's own, it bought them / companies that invented them.

The point here is whether it is economical; small single house units, so far, cost as much as the house and often more; and you have to redesign the house to reinforce certain areas that will now have to bear more weight. Expect to see anything show up first in industrial settings - larger plant to spread cost over time; everything is deductible to corporations - and then smaller units developed when they are better understood and they can get the costs down.

There are too many conspiracy theorists commenting about how you have to keep this from the energy companies, etc. because they "will suppress it". Oooooo, I'm shaking in my boots.

Unfortunately, Aristotle had it right when he said, "Politics is the master science". One more quote that I'm fond of is, "Beware of the military industrial complex," by none other than 5 star general and President DD Eisenhower. As for GREED, "It WAS made in the USA, Sure was a good idea,'Til greed got in the way, " Bob Dylan

I tend to differ with that statement, that greed was ' made in the U.S.A. '. It makes it sound as if we invented it and are to blame. It's a worldwide thing that continually needs to be checked that is doesn't get out of hand. I should have added that greed, has spawned indifference and laziness, by the powers that be.

Possible that we may not have invented it but we surely have perfected it, as of late. If true capitalism was to thrive we would not be subsidising farming, energy, and the like. True capitalists would have let Bear Stearns sink like a rock for making miserable business decisions. The current river of fascism is flowing like the Mississippi in April. If real change is to happen, K Street needs to be put out of business. I cant remember the last major corporate failure, feel free to jog my memory.

How quickly we forget. I had to think myself, but I think Enron can be on that list.

Touche, If it were not for all of the blatant crimes that Enron committed they may be around today. Although, Ken Lay is probably pulling the little bamboo umbrella out of his mai-tai and toasting with Jim Morrison.

blockquote> I get the feeling they're not in the same place.