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Article Source: Popular Science - advertisement
As if the universe weren't strange enough, scientists have recently discovered that entire galaxy clusters—the largest known structures in the universe, consisting of thousands of galaxies—are moving toward the same area. And we have no idea what mysterious phenomenon is drawing them along. Whatever it is, it's huge. So far, cosmologists' best guess is that it's the gravitational pull from something beyond the visible universe.
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{"commentId":10117053,"authorDomain":"jcatom"}
...Kashlinsky’s team found evidence that all of the clusters they studied were moving toward a single point. They can’t see anything that would cause this bulk motion, so it may suggest that there is a very massive structure lurking beyond the edge of the visible universe pulling the galaxies toward it with its gravity.
{"commentId":10117053,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"jcatom"}
- 3 votes
#1 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:02 AM EDT{"commentId":10117105,"authorDomain":"jcatom"}
This is the second article I've seeded about this. Here's the first.
The question I have is how can the universe be expanding (via Dark Energy) while at the same time moving toward a single point (Dark Flow)?
{"commentId":10117105,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"jcatom"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":10117575,"authorDomain":"sgsteitler"}
Perhaps the system as a whole is distorted like a football shape, with strong magnetic points at either end?
{"commentId":10117575,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"sgsteitler"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":10122365,"authorDomain":"nkycarbon"}
The question I have is how can the universe be expanding (via Dark Energy) while at the same time moving toward a single point (Dark Flow)?
The expansion is uniform where the arrangement of matter is non-uniform.
So, the universe is expanding but some clusters of galaxies are coming together.
My guess is that "dark flow" is the remnant of the initial hyper expanision.
The matter that was created was created unevenly. It was falling towards itself. However the space between the parts was being stretched by the initial hyper inflation. The hyper inflation wore down but the matter is still falling toward that initial point.
I guess the important thing to remember is that expansion of the universe be it the initial hyper expansion or the more recent accelerated expansion does not change the velocity of the objects just the distance. Expansion implies things being "pushed" apart but there is no "pushing" only "stretching" of space. It's just adding more space with doesn't change inertia.
{"commentId":10122365,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"nkycarbon"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10117810,"authorDomain":"Blearc"}
Could it be an "optical" illusion. Something compressing the line of sight?
{"commentId":10117810,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"Blearc"}
- 2 votes
#2 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:36 AM EDT{"commentId":10125153,"authorDomain":"Ben947448"}
Imagine the universe as a loaf of raisin bread in the oven. The galaxies are the raisins.
As the bread(universe) expands the raisins(galaxies) are pulled along with it. From any fixed position inside the loaf of bread everything seems to be moving away from you. Now imagine a bread loving entity pulling the loaf of bread(universe) out of the oven. The galaxies are moving away from each other while moving toward a single point.
I don't know a lot about cosmology but I love bread just out of the oven.
{"commentId":10125153,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"Ben947448"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":10117876,"authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
Ok... not that I'm qualified to even wonder about this, but if the following are "true":
1. Every direction we look we are looking back in time.
2. The "further" we look the more remote the time being viewed.
3. Either oscillation or big-bang are to some extent valid.
Then why would it be surprising to find that 46 and some odd billion years ago everything would be in the same "place"? Isn't that exactly where you would expect it to be? And if oscillation is indeed the case, then isn't that exactly where it should all be "going"?
{"commentId":10117876,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
- 6 votes
#3 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:38 AM EDT{"commentId":10118575,"authorDomain":"bobnelsonfrance"}
Considering the number of unexplained dark stuff that physicists have to invent nowadays to prop up Newton/Einstein cosmology..... I'd guess that one of these days somebody somewhere is going to have a Eureka moment.
Nice seed.
{"commentId":10118575,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"bobnelsonfrance"}
- 2 votes
#4 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:08 AM EDT{"commentId":10120647,"authorDomain":"bjw1966"}
The more we think we understand, the greater the unknown......
(Rush, Power Windows, Mystic Rhythms)
{"commentId":10120647,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"bjw1966"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10118979,"authorDomain":"boneclinkz"}
It truly is a wondrous universe He hath made.
{"commentId":10118979,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"boneclinkz"}
- 2 votes
#5 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:25 AM EDT{"commentId":10121008,"authorDomain":"alwaypwns"}
RAmen.
{"commentId":10121008,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"alwaypwns"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10119273,"authorDomain":"buplerum"}
Perhaps they're just going that way. (Does everything have to have a reason?)
{"commentId":10119273,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"buplerum"}
- 3 votes
#6 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:35 AM EDT{"commentId":10119718,"authorDomain":"jwbuchan"}
Cosmic house party?
{"commentId":10119718,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"jwbuchan"}
- 2 votes
#7 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:51 AM EDT{"commentId":10120372,"authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
Gravity can't move faster than light. if it is not visible then it woudl not have a gravitational effect.
{"commentId":10120372,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
- 2 votes
#8 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:15 PM EDT{"commentId":10120599,"authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
I don't believe that's accurate, but then I'm probably far beyond my depth.
If gravity is a byproduct of spacetime, then it does not 'move' and is not subject to the Einstein limit on velocity. It is an effect of and object having mass existing in the same spacetime as another object having mass, and the effect is felt at any distance according to the inverse square law without any temporal delay.
{"commentId":10120599,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10120737,"authorDomain":"jcatom"}
Gravity waves are theorized to move at the speed of light...and the things that move due to gravity can be pulled from a distance greater than that which light would be able to travel in order for us to see the thing doing the pulling.
{"commentId":10120737,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"jcatom"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":10120976,"authorDomain":"jcatom"}
I think that if an object had enough gravity to accelerate another body to a speed equal to or greater than the speed of light, then the point at which that body reaches such a speed would represent an event horizon in relation to it and the gravitating body.
I've never seen that written, but it seems like it makes sense. Doesn't necessarily bear on Behind My Screen's thoughts though.
{"commentId":10120976,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"jcatom"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":10121234,"authorDomain":"jcatom"}
I think that the effects of gravity do move at c (I've read in several places that if the sun were to suddenly disappear, we would feel the gravitational effects at the same instant that the lights go out).
But both can work over the entire expanse of the universe. So something that is out of sight...or that we just aren't able to see because of diffusion...would still have an effect. Also, to clarify my comment in #8.2, we can see that objects are being moved, even if we can't see the thing moving them.
{"commentId":10121234,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"jcatom"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":10121522,"authorDomain":"mimehunter"}
You are exactly right JC, the force of gravity moves at the speed of light (if you want to think about it in terms of exchanging particles, then we know that those particles can't travel faster than light).
And there are objects beyond our line of sight that have an effect on things within our sight (so that in and of itself is not a new phenomena). I think it's important to remember that by "dark" we basically mean unknown (though we do have various theories, like in the case of dark matter)
That being said, I really enjoyed the article, thanks for the seed.
{"commentId":10121522,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"mimehunter"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":10122912,"authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
Not that I like getting even deeper into things I don't understand, but hey, it's Friday...
What about entanglement? That seems to totally disregard the light speed barrier.
{"commentId":10122912,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10123955,"authorDomain":"ninbyo"}
Could it simply be a super super massive black hole of some sort and any light it would be giving off it trapped inside it's event horizon?
And yes, there are things that move faster than light. Something about the speed of light only applies to objects with mass traveling through space. If there's something outside the Universe as we know it, it may well be able to move faster than light. Quantum entanglement apparently defies the speed limit of the universe.
{"commentId":10123955,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"ninbyo"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10124285,"authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
I'm also curious about the 46 billion light year bit - isn't that a tad larger than the estimated size of the universe? Unless the next step is for our entire universe to actually be a black hole in someone elses universe (say hi to the Heechee) it seems that whatever is being wondered about is around the bend.
{"commentId":10124285,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"MyOpIA"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10125025,"authorDomain":"naftel"}
Gravity can't move faster than light. if it is not visible then it woudl not have a gravitational effect.
Black holes are not visible, yet they have a gravitational effect.
You are exactly right JC, the force of gravity moves at the speed of light
As far as I know there is no way to substantiate this claim. We don't even know what the force of gravity is or how it is transmitted. No gravity waves or gravity particles have ever been observed, so it is impossible to say how fast they are able to travel.
And yes, there are things that move faster than light. Something about the speed of light only applies to objects with mass traveling through space.
Certain sub-atomic particles seem to exhibit the properties of instantaneous communication over infinite distance, implying faster-than-light movemet.
{"commentId":10125025,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"naftel"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":10137160,"authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
As far as we can tell, there is nothing in the universe that is beyond our ability to see it. we can look all the way back to the point that visible light was first formed. complex mater could not exist before that point in time so for these galaxies to be getting pulled by something out of our vision seems difficult to accept.
{"commentId":10137160,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10137836,"authorDomain":"naftel"}
As far as we can tell, there is nothing in the universe that is beyond our ability to see it.
That is completely untrue. According to the most widely accepted cosmological models the majority of the Universe (as much as 90%) consists of so called dark matter and dark energy, which we have never seen nor detected.
{"commentId":10137836,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"naftel"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10145174,"authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
We are talking about the visible bounds of the universe. By "Beyond" I was referring to the size of the universe. We can see all the way back to the time that light was first able to form so there is not some massive amount or normal matter pulling those galaxy clusters. If it is Dark Matter, then this is probably the best evidence for its existence. The matter would however be within our "perceptible" universe(i.e. it exists within the bounds of the universe that we can sense.) just like the rest of the dark matter.
I was simply explaining that the pull could not be generated by some much larger galactic cluster.
{"commentId":10145174,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":10124625,"authorDomain":"Ben947448"}
Ninbyo- yes there are things that move faster than light...
The world of science isn't ready to say that yet. Observations of quantum entanglement seem to indicate that, but... not enough is known about how it works to say that.
Long ago observations indicated that the heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth. Application of the scientific method showed that to be false. The following is the only known instance of faster than light travel.
There was a young lady named Bright
Who traveled much faster than light
She set out one day
In a relative way
And returned on the previous night
{"commentId":10124625,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"Ben947448"}
- 2 votes
#9 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:11 PM EDT{"commentId":10124668,"authorDomain":"cris-1Cris"}
Another amazing indication that we know close to nothing about the Universe and how it works. Fascinating!
{"commentId":10124668,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"cris-1Cris"}
- 3 votes
#10 - Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:12 PM EDT{"commentId":10137176,"authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
Nice hyperbole about our knowledge.
{"commentId":10137176,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"behindmyscreen"}
{"commentId":10140737,"authorDomain":"roberte7"}
Gosh fellas, don't worry too much about it because it is just looking back at God re-cycling matter with which He was experimenting some 500 trillion years or so ago. He's just playing around as He is wont to do when humans get a little boring in His future. He's already been here, seen that, and wore out the T-shirt: Time for change AGAIN??
roberte
{"commentId":10140737,"threadId":"703010","contentId":"3389431","authorDomain":"roberte7"}
- 1 vote
#11 - Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:41 PM EDT{"canLink":false,"threadId":"703010","isPrivate":false}
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