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JCATOM

Absquatulating with the folderol.
Articles Posted: 10  Links Seeded: 1427
Member Since: 4/2008  Last Seen: 5/16/2012

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Is the Sun Emitting a Mystery Particle? - Radioactive Decay Rate Variation

Seeded on Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:18 AM EDT
Read ArticleArticle Source: Discovery.com
science, space, energy, data, earth, physics, sun, universe, mass, solar-system, cosmology, big-bang, einstein, purdue, experiment, matter, stanford-university, cosmos, supernova, radioactive, acs, constant, half-life, solar-flare, chameleon, neutrino, carbon-dating, veritas, astronomical, wmap, carbon-14, ghost-particle, decay-rate, radioactive-decay-rate
Seeded by JCAtom
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...these threads of evidence appear to lead to a common source of the radioactive decay rate variation. But there's a huge problem with speculation that solar neutrinos could impact decay rates on Earth: neutrinos aren't supposed to work like that.

Neutrinos, born from the nuclear processes in the core of the sun, are ghostly particles. They can literally pass through the Earth unhindered as they so weakly interacting. How could such a quantum welterweight have any measurable impact on radioactive samples in the lab?

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  • Public Discussion (15)
JCAtom

...what if a well-known -- and apparently constant -- characteristic of matter starts behaving mysteriously?

This is exactly what has been noticed in recent years; the decay rates of radioactive elements are changing. This is especially mysterious as we are talking about elements with 'constant' decay rates -- these values aren't supposed to change, school textbooks teach us this from an early age.

This is the conclusion that researchers from Stanford and Purdue University have arrived at, but the only explanation they have is even weirder than the phenomenon itself: the sun might be emitting a previously unknown particle that is meddling with the decay rates of matter. Or, at the very least, we are seeing some new physics.

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:20 AM EDT
Physicist-retired

JC,

You're really on a role today! Great find.

I can't remember if I read this in Discover or New Scientist (very recently), but it was absolutely amazing to me.

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:09 AM EDT
Reply
dungbeetlemania

This is stunning stuff, thanks for seeding it. When they first noticed the seasonal nature of the variation they must have thought they were going crazy.

  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:41 AM EDT
AmusedinVa

Or, at the very least, we are seeing some new physics.

That probably sums it up right there. Physics is not a field I can claim to know too much about but I do know that it is a constantly changing field as we discover more and more on an ever increasingly frequent basis. If we ever achieve the building of a moon base or a settlement on mars then we'll probably see these discoveries accelerate even faster as observations could be made in different gravities and atmospheres. Hopefully the ion drive will make deep space probes a more common occurrence as well further accelerating the information we can gain.

  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:42 AM EDT
D DeMilo

good catch, JC. there was another theory (out of Russia - if memory serves) if I can find it, that showed some concern over the fluidity of time and the sun's effect on it

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:09 PM EDT
HunterHawke

Excellent JC! Wow...just...wow.

So, physics now has some new questions to answer.

  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:37 PM EDT
Briwnys

But as you can see, carbon dating makes one huge assumption: radioactive decay rates remain constant and always have been constant. If this new finding is proven to be correct, even if the impact is small, it will throw the science community into a spin.

If the decay rates of radioactive elements are changing, is this entirely seasonal and average out overall? Or is there an measurable acceleration in decay? This wasn't made clear in the article.

  • 5 votes
Reply#6 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:57 PM EDT
dungbeetlemania

Good question, I was also wondering.

  • 5 votes
#6.1 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:05 PM EDT
Physicist-retired

Briwnys,

I posted this explanation on another thread today - I think it answers your question.

the decay rates of radioactive elements are changing.

This is a phenomenon that has been observed for some time, but until very recently was passed off as experimental variation caused by subtle environmental fluctuations in the laboratories conducting the measurements.

As best I know, the current thinking is that the variation in decay rates is highly correlated to solar activity - specifically the rotation of the inner core of the sun. The earth's varying distance to the sun may also be involved, but to a lesser degree, and only during this solar activity.

It seems that this activity may be introducing particles into our environment that produce variations in decay rates. Of course, the first particle that was suspected was the neutrino - but that didn't make a lot of sense, because of what we currently believe to be the very low interaction rate of neutrinos with matter.

It may be that there is some as-yet unknown particle responsible for this. Another mind-blower!

But the solar activity = decay rate fluctuation correlation is very strong. And it's a real issue for how we measure deep time.

If the decay rates of radioactive elements are changing, is this entirely seasonal and average out overall? Or is there an measurable acceleration in decay? This wasn't made clear in the article.

So no, it isn't seasonal, other than the element that refers to the earth's distance from the sun during that solar activity. And it seems to be fluctuating, not so much increasing. Whether that will average out over time is a very interesting question - but it will be a while before that's known.

  • 5 votes
#6.2 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:06 PM EDT
Briwnys

Thanks, Physicist! Next question, is it possible the particle is not from the sun but from the influx of cosmic rays associated with the LIC which would affect both solar activity and the decay rate fluctuation?

  • 3 votes
#6.3 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:33 PM EDT
Physicist-retired

Briwnys,

Since the decay fluctuations seem to be highly correlated to the solar activity, I wouldn't think so. But this is so new that I wouldn't rule out anything at this point.

  • 5 votes
#6.4 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:52 PM EDT
SuDuToo

I first heard of this anomaly 20-30 years ago. The refined elements (reactors, bombs) were getting "dirty" too quickly.

  • 3 votes
#6.5 - Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:11 PM EDT
Reply
Colorado Bob

One more fly in the soup kids -

“It is now clear that the record low temperature and density were primarily caused by unusually low levels of solar radiation at the extreme-ultraviolet level,” Solomon says. Woods says the research indicates that the sun could be going through a period of relatively low activity, similar to periods in the early 19th and 20th centuries. This could mean that solar output may remain at a low level for the near future. “If it is indeed similar to certain patterns in the past, then we expect to have low solar cycles for the next 10 to 30 years,” Woods says.

Shrinking atmospheric layer linked to low levels of solar radiation

  • 3 votes
Reply#7 - Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:07 AM EDT
Colorado Bob

The sun's energy output declined to unusually low levels from 2007 to 2009, a particularly prolonged solar minimum during which there were virtually no sunspots or solar storms
.

During that same period of low solar activity, Earth's thermosphere shrank more than at any time in the 43-year era of space exploration.

  • 3 votes
#7.1 - Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:13 AM EDT
Reply
Chirmly

Since our cross-validations are consistent to a high degree, it would seem that it's a seasonal variation only, and averaging out over the course of multiple years. We've even calibrated radiological dating with known historical events, and other non-radiological dating methodologies, so it's unlikely to have been consistently growing nor shrinking.

But what's more intriguing is the potential effect on extra-terrestrial samples. Something like an asteroid, or Mars samples (where the distance is farther away) would theoretically test younger (by a LARGE factor), if particles from the sun are a factor.

The Earth is a mere 3-4 million miles more distant from the sun between Winter and Summer. Mars is about 30 million miles farther out. It's decay rate should actually be profoundly slower, meaning that there'd be much more "parent" in the ratio, indicating younger dates. If the 0.37 percent variation between seasons is accurate, then for Mars it would be around 100 times that (delta-radius squared) (or 37%). That's kind of on the absurd-side, since we have meteors with dates of 4.54 billion years old. UNLESS it's not a square of the radius formula, in which case it would be a particle emission source that acts unlike "light"...

It's almost definitely not the neutrinos, since we already know their incidence rate with normal matter. So it's likely some other particle type altogether.

  • 4 votes
Reply#8 - Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:30 AM EDT
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